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Subject: House bailout defeated

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Author Messages
showboat
Posts:67
09/29/2008 3:32 PM Alert 
I don't understand something here... very few here wanted the bailout, but are making fun of house Republicans for not voting for it... what is your logic here? "More than two-thirds of Republicans and 40 percent of Democrats opposed the bill."
jpinpb
Posts:1450
09/29/2008 5:29 PM Alert 
Why 700 B won't begin to cover it. Was listening to KPBS today and they were talking about Wachovia. Wachovia. One lending institution. They said Wachovia had 300 BILLION of bad debt. That's one - count them - one bank! Now think about all the debts of all the banks/lending institutions out that - and the debt that will undoubtedly continue to mount. How many bandaids are we putting on here before we get someone to put a tourniquet? Maybe a tourniquet just won't do it. You might have to amputate and just deal w/a missing limb. Yes, there will be suffering, but the strong will adapt and overcome. I hear the handicapped even have a special olympics. Some overcome detriments.
wilson
Posts:541
09/29/2008 8:19 PM Alert 
Wall Street lost $1.3 trillion today. That's nearly double what the bailout costs. ....and that is start of recession and more losses.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Congress will pass bailout after the election when they aren't afraid of losing their jobs and people see what the alternative is.
jpinpb
Posts:1450
09/29/2008 9:18 PM Alert 
Wall Street losses are on paper, you could say. I mean even after Black Tuesday in '29 and Black Monday in '87, eventually the market recovered.
wilson
Posts:541
09/29/2008 9:22 PM Alert 
Real estate losses are on paper, too. Does that mean RE prices will recover? Unless bailout passes, there will be pain and the 90% of public who hate bill will be sorry.
jpinpb
Posts:1450
09/29/2008 9:35 PM Alert 
Of course eventually real estate will recover. Historically real estate has been cyclical. The question isn't if it will recover. The question is when. The longer this mess drags out, the longer before we have a recovery.
wilson
Posts:541
09/29/2008 9:56 PM Alert 
So you must be a supporter of the bailout, because you recognize that the financial instability has hampered the RE market and it is obvious that stock market losses dwarf the bailout tab. Of course stock and RE prices will recover. How much farther will they go down in the mean time?

If it came to this level of instability, I never thought Congress would not act. Maybe this political posturing will end in a couple of days.
jpinpb
Posts:1450
09/29/2008 10:01 PM Alert 
wilson - I believe we have to hit bottom before we can have a recovery. If the government continues to intervene and interfere and try to make this fictitious "soft" landing and stick the taxpayers w/trillions of dollars of corporate bailout money, this bottom won't be seen for a very long time. That's JMO.
jpinpb
Posts:1450
09/29/2008 10:04 PM Alert 
Think of it like this. The car is going down the hill, but the brakes are failing. You can weave all over the road and try to stop the car before you get to the bottom. If you get to bottom, you have a chance of going back up the hill. If you hit a tree before hitting bottom, you could be stuck on the road for a while.
fernie
Posts:5
09/29/2008 10:26 PM Alert 
This a part of a 5 step giant transfer of wealth from the American citizen into big corporations/foreign nations:
1. We BOMB the hell out of the Middle East (i.e. spending billions on dollars on bombs and other weaponry)
2. We DEPLOYED MILITARILY in the same region at a cost of God knows how many billions of dollars per week.
3. We pay the biggest conglomerates (once again the military-industrial complex) a few hundreds of billions of dollars to RECONSTRUCT those same countries.
4. We witness one of the largest transfers of wealth in human kind thru the increase in the barrel of OIL from well less than $20.00 in 2000 to almost $150.00/barrel in June 2008 (just do the numbers at 21 million barrels per day)
5. Finally, and to top it up, we are looking at subsidizing Wall Streets failed and mismanaged operations thru extending unlimited financial powers to the Executive. (So much for this crap of the "bailing out benefitting Main Street" and not the banks and that the government will make money on this, like a wise investor will pay money for worthless paper that nobody in the private sector wants, no matter what interest rate you attach to this risk.)
Unimaginable! Surreal!
No to CORPORATE WELFARE! Let's be true capitalist and teach with our example other Third World nations like we have preaching to them for years thru the IMF/World Bank: LET THE MARKET RIDE!!!!![b] [/b][b] [/b]
ownhomeinSD
Posts:163
09/29/2008 10:30 PM Alert 
Posted By jpinpb on 09/29/2008 10:04 PM
Think of it like this. The car is going down the hill, but the brakes are failing. You can weave all over the road and try to stop the car before you get to the bottom. If you get to bottom, you have a chance of going back up the hill. If you hit a tree before hitting bottom, you could be stuck on the road for a while.




This tree may help you not falling further and to turn back up the hill. Actually, there should be a lot of trees (investors, government, foreigns, etc) in the hill and you have a lot chances for not hitting the deepest bottom and get back early.
wilson
Posts:541
09/29/2008 10:40 PM Alert 
The hill analogy presupposes there is no way the path can be affected. Not by monetary policy or any other factors. A train on its track is more like it. We would be powerless and predestined to follow a course. Hogwash! There are choices and circumstances that shift our realityu everyday. I don't for a second think we are fated for any singular future that cannot be altered.
Brian
Posts:2210
09/29/2008 10:51 PM Alert 
Wilson, please share with us why you support this bailout.
You have said before that house prices are not really out of line with fundamentals. In that case, what are the problems?

Really, what are the problems? And why is this bailout so important?
lurknomore
Posts:270
09/30/2008 7:23 AM Alert 
In spite of the focus of this internet site, it isn't all about real estate. Hundreds of thousands of small businesses are unable to get credit to buy inventory for the Holiday selling season and will fail, along with their employees and suppliers. Buying cars, etc. will get harder. The economic disaster will make housing prices fall more, to your delight, but you had better have enough cash to buy one.
jakob
Posts:473
09/30/2008 7:43 AM Alert 
Lurknomore, do you have a link backing up that claim of lack of small business credit? So far I have heard a lot of fear-mongering from the Bush administration but haven't seen the evidence myself. (reminds me of the reason for invading Iraq). Mortgage rates are 5.91% today on the 30-year. Down from last week. Dow is up 200 points today. No $700B of taxpayer money to Wall Street.
lurknomore
Posts:270
09/30/2008 8:05 AM Alert 
jakob--Virtually all the news outlets (CNN, CNBC) have had interviews yesterday and today with small business owners who say they have been unable to finance inventory and/or have had to reduce staffing. It takes several weeks before data are collected, collated, and reported, so anecdotal evidence is all we have now. In the commercial area a short distance from my home, one boutique closed this week because they couldn't get shipments. A new restaurant has delayed opening bevcause it can't finance the kitchen equipment it needs.

Time will tell.

I think the stock market rise this morning is partly technical (after a big down move yesterday), partly end-of-quarter activity, partly due to low volume, and partly optimism that something close to the "workout" plan will get passed this week.
lurknomore
Posts:270
09/30/2008 8:15 AM Alert 
jakob--Just as I was sitting down to read the WSJ, I heard a discussion among CNBC reporters. Bob Pisani talked about farmers who can't get financing to buy fertilizer to plant crops, auto dealers who can't finance car purchases by customers, commercial paper issuance down two or three hundred million dollars this past week, etc. I believe the problem is real. There can be disagreement about whether is it a good or bad thing, inevitable or preventable, helped or hurt by government intervention, etc. But I don't think there is any doubt a severe credit dislocation is happening.
jpinpb
Posts:1450
09/30/2008 8:33 AM Alert 
fernie = but if we help the corporations, it will trickle down to us poor people and help us in the end. /end sarcasm.

More like it will trickle out of the pockets of us poor people.
lurknomore
Posts:270
09/30/2008 8:56 AM Alert 
jakob--Just now CNBC is airing a story on how retail purchasing agents report being unable to buy needed inventory (37%) and have had their lines of credit reduced (42%). Many reported being unable to get new lines of credit. The reporter said that the organization that collected these data stated that supply chain (getting needed products or materials) is the weak link and has been hurt by the inability to finance orders. This will reduce economic activity over the next few months, when retail makes a large part of its profits and normally adds seasonal employees,.
ownhomeinSD
Posts:163
09/30/2008 8:58 AM Alert 
Oh, just found the brakes (market force) for the car in hill are still functioning. :)
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