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Asher
Posts:64

07/23/2008 8:14 PM	Alert
Ok, I have to say the renderings from Gerding Edlen for their proposed City Hall are simply awesome. That entire area badly needs a complete revamp. Perhaps the best part is that the city grid will be restored, with Second Avenue and B Street continuing all the way through. All this and it will reduce city costs -- I really can't imagine who would oppose such a project.

jpinpb
Posts:1450

07/23/2008 8:15 PM	Alert
Again - as if the City can afford this. How about fixing the potholed streets, sewer and water mains first.

stella
Posts:360

07/23/2008 8:18 PM	Alert
This is a no brainer financially. Look into the details of why they are looking to do this and you'll understand.

wilson
Posts:541

07/23/2008 8:29 PM	Alert
as an architect, i'm less than thrilled.

Asher
Posts:64

07/23/2008 8:58 PM	Alert
wilson, I'm curious about why being less than thrilled? As a layman, I'm impressed. There's not a lot of office towers in San Diego that are not some form of a box, and for a city hall, my expectations are lower than for class A office space. Given that, this beats out most office towers downtown SD in terms of design in my book.

Brian
Posts:2210

07/23/2008 9:04 PM	Alert
I don't mind if the project is self supporting with private tenants paying for the cost and if the City can reduce rental expenses. But don't ask me to approve a bond measure. No way, Jose. Wilson, as an architect, what buildings so you like Downtown SD? I think that we have a dearth of inspiring public architecture.

wilson
Posts:541

07/23/2008 9:12 PM	Alert
The design looks to me to take its inspiration froma boat sail, much like the Sydney Opera House. That is an icon of modern architecture and was done 25 years ago. Granted the design breaks the box, but it just doesn't seem like an elegant form. Just a first impression, but it doesn't seem to be a solution that'd be something that will look as cool 40 years from now. Architecture is a lot like fashion, except you have to live with what goes out of fashion for the next 80 years.

wilson
Posts:541

07/23/2008 9:37 PM	Alert
People might stone me for this, but I love the El Cortez. Even with the lawsuits, valet parking, no decks, and possibility on a new condo tower on the north part of the block, it is a classic. At $220/sf I'm very tempted to buy a cheap 2 bdrm. I like the Grande/Bayside towers. The massing, decks, and colors look a lot cleaner to me than towers like Treo, Acqua Vista, Discovery, and others that seem pretty bland. Beige color on those towers are a lost opportunity. Aria is a much nicer form than the new city hall. I think their solution is very nice and driven by the lot configuration. There is nothing in the city hall design that looks to be shaped by the lot or in reponse to the buildings around it. I doubt if I would ever purchase there because I think prices will be very sticky there for a long time. I like loft buildings, but it is kind of strange to build a new Soho-style warehouse residential condo building. Parkloft looks nice, but it is kind of a Disneyland building: historical flavor with none of the history. I'm also afraid to admit that I would consider a home there. Petco Park is very nice. I'm a big baseball fan and like how open that is to downtown and the buildings around it. The phillips-head screwdriver office building is interesting, and makes SD skyline distinctive. Another condo building I like is Del Prado, on Balboa Park. Even though it is dated, it has clean lines. Reminds me of some Chicago archtecture: Mies Van Der Rohe. Units are very large, but prices are still high. Cortez Blu is one of the ugliest buildings I've ever seen. How could somebody build that?

artist
Posts:81

07/23/2008 10:08 PM	Alert
If you ask me it looks like it is a fat building like so many of the fat cats who will work there with their over payed do nothing jobs. Or, is looks like an electric razor.

jackjack
Posts:155

07/23/2008 10:10 PM	Alert
Posted By wilson on 07/23/2008 9:37 PM People might stone me for this, but I love the El Cortez. Even with the lawsuits, valet parking, no decks, and possibility on a new condo tower on the north part of the block, it is a classic. At $220/sf I'm very tempted to buy a cheap 2 bdrm. I like the Grande/Bayside towers. The massing, decks, and colors look a lot cleaner to me than towers like Treo, Acqua Vista, Discovery, and others that seem pretty bland. Beige color on those towers are a lost opportunity. Aria is a much nicer form than the new city hall. I think their solution is very nice and driven by the lot configuration. There is nothing in the city hall design that looks to be shaped by the lot or in reponse to the buildings around it. I doubt if I would ever purchase there because I think prices will be very sticky there for a long time. I like loft buildings, but it is kind of strange to build a new Soho-style warehouse residential condo building. Parkloft looks nice, but it is kind of a Disneyland building: historical flavor with none of the history. I'm also afraid to admit that I would consider a home there. Petco Park is very nice. I'm a big baseball fan and like how open that is to downtown and the buildings around it. The phillips-head screwdriver office building is interesting, and makes SD skyline distinctive. Another condo building I like is Del Prado, on Balboa Park. Even though it is dated, it has clean lines. Reminds me of some Chicago archtecture: Mies Van Der Rohe. Units are very large, but prices are still high. Cortez Blu is one of the ugliest buildings I've ever seen. How could somebody build that? I have wondered how someone could build Cortez Blu myself - it is terrible looking! It is an eyesore to Cortez Hill. I have to think it was a mistake. Seriously, putting a saucer on the roof?

Brian
Posts:2210

07/23/2008 10:46 PM	Alert
Wilson, we may not agree on the state of the real estate market, but we certainly agree on architecture. :) We need some kind of central plaza in San Diego with a train station -- a public place with some activity, where families can come and enjoy the day. If we want Downtown to be more walkable, we need someplace for people to walk to. I love the neighborhood parks of Paris. Place des Vosges is my favorite. Children's Park is absolutely useless. It's all "look at me" and not user friendly at all. Let's see if we'll get a waterfront park.

hiswelshness
Posts:66

07/23/2008 11:33 PM	Alert
I like the fatcat reference! It's a building with a belly. It just needs a cigar protruding out of the penthouse floor! So funny to hear Wilson bemoan having to live with someone's architectural mistake for 80 years. Try living in Europe mate. They get pretty cool after 500 years or so. Having said that, at least it's courtyard centrepiece isn't a statue of Don Diego. San Diego's become a lot less provincial than it was 25 years ago when I left. For a city building, it's pretty cool! At least they're trying.

wilson
Posts:541

07/23/2008 11:42 PM	Alert
I didn't see Marina Park or explore the waterfront much on my last trip to SD, but guessed that would be a nice place. Mission Bay & Mission Beach were nice and not very busy in May. You're right in that I never saw any "town square". The plaza near the convention center seemed a bit split up by roads, train, etc. Unfortunately, most cities can't afford to reclaim land for new public spaces. I've always liked Chicago's lakefront: grand fountains, gardens, ball fields, museums, etc. SD downtown is nice in that the towers are mixed in with enough lowrise that you don't feel dwarfed by the buildings like in Manhattan or other bigger cities. The elevation change up to Cortez Hill makes that area seem nice a quiet, almost isolated.

dchestney
Posts:164

07/24/2008 6:46 AM	Alert
Wilson--Thank you for the kind reference to the Del Prado, built in 1973. We are about to vote on an assessment for significant interior renovation and have engaged an architect with considerable experience with historical properties to guide us toward improvements that will retain its historic beauty. For comparison purposes, just look at the exterior features of the two Coral Tree towers, built three years later just north of the Del Prado.

wilson
Posts:541

07/24/2008 9:01 AM	Alert
dchestney, What do you think Del Prado 1503 will eventually sell for? Looks like an estate sale on the market for over 6 months. Their range bottom is now $615k. Is there a limit on size of a dog as pet? Description refers to "72-hour clause", is that response time from owner to an offer? What range are the possible assessment sfor remodeling? My guess this building probably doesn't have much turnover and not many renters, right? Older tenants? I would guess from not a lot of recent sales, that most owners are longterm. I was considering downtown, but access and view of the park would be nice. Some of the unit photos almost look too big, as if furniture appears small in so large a living area. A nice problem to have.

dchestney
Posts:164

07/24/2008 11:28 AM	Alert
Wilson--I am glad to share with you what I know. It is an estate sale and was "pending" in the MLS a week or two ago but must have fallen through, as it is an "active" listing again. From the pictures, it has the original cabinets in the kitchen, master bathroom, and wet bar, with apparently-new tile in the kitched. Although many 03 units have three bedrooms, this one has taken out the wall to create an oversize LR/DR with two remaining bedrooms. (Parenthetically, our 03 unit has the wall removed as well, but the parquet flooring in our "3rd BR" sets it off visually from the LR.) The current CC&Rs allow "two domesticated animals such as dogs and cats which, in the aggregate, weigh thirty-five (35) pounds or less." I do not know what the "72-hour clause" refers to--it is not specific to this building. There are 4-5 "renters" (actually, with a one-year minimum length lease) that I know of out of the 66 units, and when we bought in 2002 there were still a lot of long-time owners in the building. Since that time, 25 or more of the units have changed hands (three in 2007, I believe), but the number of units currently available is unusually large--three deaths, one relocation to a supportive living facility, one move-back to a second home in Florida. The current HOA fee is $662 for the 03 units (a little less in the considerably-smaller 02/04 units and a little more in the slightly larger 01/05 units). It will increase by $33 starting in the Fall. The HOA Board this week authorized a homeowner vote on the "middle" cost of the three remodeling/redecorating plans developed by a homeowners' committee; if it is approved in the vote, the assessment will be $15,000 per unit--$3,000 right away, $750 per month for 12 months, and $250 per month for the following 12 months. 26 out of 40 units voting in an informal straw poll last week said they would vote for that size assessment, so it is likely to pass when everyone (including estates, nonresident owners, people who were out-of-town, etc.) gets to vote in the assessment election. We love living here for the location (the front door to the building is directly across a small street from the park, and we are an easy 0.6 mile walk from the center of Hillcrest) and about 2.0 miles from downtown's Horton Plaza), the spacious feel of the unit (with the entire exterior "wall" glass except for structural pillars), the cooling west breeze that occurs most afternoons, the friendliness of the other owners, and the ambience in the building.

andyinsdca
Posts:20

07/24/2008 1:04 PM	Alert
The monument builders are at it again. They didn't get their library, so now they are pursuing a shiny, new City Hall. Maybe once they have the pension mess fixed, the roads in decent condition and whatnot, I'll start to think that maybe the bumpkins on the city council (and our mayor, the city attorney, etc) can manage a project of this scale.

wilson
Posts:541

07/24/2008 1:29 PM	Alert
dchestney, thanks for all the helpful info. I would need to put my yellow lab mix on a big diet (just kidding).

stella
Posts:360

07/31/2008 6:29 PM	Alert
This project should also dramatically increase the amount of class C and B office space downtown and the city has a lot of staff in leased space. It would be great to see some small startup companies start coming downtown to help give us some more options along with more people during the day.

tpc
Posts:498

07/31/2008 7:26 PM	Alert
The class B andC offices are perfect for adaptive reuse during periods of time when there is an excess of vacant office buildings. This happened in Chicago in the late 1980s when large numbers of class A (see thru) office buildings were constructed for tax shelter reasons promoted by the Ronnie administration. Many of my commercial mortgage banking associates jumped on the bandwagon and built office buildings. Upon completion, Ronnie changed the rules and took away most of the tax advantages. Tax rates were reduced from 50% with lots of income shelters to 28% with many of the loopholes closed. The loophole closings were a temporary phenomena under the guise of ofsetting losses in tax revenues. The bottom line. Those class A buildings that had institutional partners survived and undercut the rents attainable by all other buildings in the market place. The RTC ended up taking back an enormous number of buildings. Many of the class C buildings and some of the class Bs were converted to homeless shelters. Gee that might be a good use to the glut of office building space that is currently becoming available due to the upcoming recession and additional telecommuting occasioned by the increase in gas prices. Myself, I built a convenience shopping center with an bank and insurance building on an outlot. IN ANY EVENT, ADAPTIVE REUSE AS HOMELESS SHELTERS which is especially appropos (?) considering the rate at which people are losing their homes. HIGHEST AND BEST USE.

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